Legislature(2005 - 2006)

03/04/2005 08:31 AM House W&M


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08:31:22 AM Start
08:31:35 AM Oversight Hearing Personal Income Tax
09:54:28 AM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
           HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS                                                                          
                         March 4, 2005                                                                                          
                           8:31 a.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Bruce Weyhrauch, Chair                                                                                           
Representative Norman Rokeberg                                                                                                  
Representative Ralph Samuels                                                                                                    
Representative Paul Seaton                                                                                                      
Representative Peggy Wilson                                                                                                     
Representative Max Gruenberg                                                                                                    
Representative Carl Moses                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
All members present                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
OVERSIGHT HEARING PERSONAL INCOME TAX                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
No previous action to record                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
DAN DICKINSON, Director                                                                                                         
Tax Division                                                                                                                    
Department of Revenue                                                                                                           
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  Offered information about income tax                                                                       
legislation and tax types.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MICHAEL WILLIAMS, Auditor                                                                                                       
Tax Division                                                                                                                    
Department of Revenue                                                                                                           
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT: Offered information about income tax                                                                        
legislation.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
BRETT FRIED, Economist IV                                                                                                       
Department of Revenue                                                                                                           
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION  STATEMENT:    Offered   information  about  income  tax                                                               
legislation and tax types.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BRUCE WEYHRAUCH called the  House Special Committee on Ways                                                             
and  Means  meeting to  order  at  8:31:22 AM.    Representatives                                                             
Weyhrauch, Wilson, Seaton, and Moses  were present at the call to                                                               
order.  Representatives Rokeberg,  Samuels, and Gruenberg arrived                                                               
as the meeting was in progress.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
^OVERSIGHT HEARING PERSONAL INCOME TAX                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
8:31:35 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  WEYHRAUCH  relayed  that   today's  meeting  would  be  an                                                               
overview on  alternative income  tax measures.   After  the state                                                               
began receiving  money from  the oil  pipeline, during  the early                                                               
1980's,  the  state  income  tax was  repealed  by  Governor  Jay                                                               
Hammond.   Since then the  fiscal gap  has become more  acute and                                                               
both   Representatives   Wilson   and   Moses   have   introduced                                                               
legislation  to reinstitute  an income  tax.   The aforementioned                                                               
legislation  proposed   different  methodologies   for  obtaining                                                               
revenue.   He  added  that the  committee  should deliberate  the                                                               
different  income  tax  scenarios   in  order  to  determine  the                                                               
implications on the long-term fiscal picture.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  WEYHRAUCH turned  to The  New York  Times, March  4, 2005,                                                             
article  entitled, "Fed's  Chief Gives  Consumption Tax  Cautious                                                               
Backing", which reports that Alan  Greenspan, the Federal Reserve                                                               
chairman, is  endorsing a structural  change in the  nation's tax                                                               
system from  an income tax to  a consumption tax.   A consumption                                                               
tax in lieu  of an income tax would promote  savings and tax only                                                               
for consumption  and not on income.   He related his  belief that                                                               
the fore  mentioned dialogue taking  place at the  national level                                                               
is [applicable] to the changes taking place at the state level.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
8:34:07 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON  related that the possibility  of a federal                                                               
sales tax concerns her.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH replied  that the federal sales  tax is basically                                                               
the  aforementioned consumption  tax  and he  related his  belief                                                               
that the nation  could be "a long way from  that" considering the                                                               
current dialogue about social security policies.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
The committee took an at-ease from 8:35:24 AM to 8:36:10 AM.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
8:36:16 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WEYRAUCH  said the Department  of Revenue has  analyzed the                                                               
potential fiscal impacts of the aforementioned legislation.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
8:37:36 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DAN  DICKINSON, Director,  Tax Division,  Department of  Revenue,                                                               
related  that the  department would  be explaining  the following                                                               
issues: how to  measure various sectors of the  economy and their                                                               
relative contribution;  the tax contribution versus  the relative                                                               
contribution   to  the   overall  economy   of  the   state;  the                                                               
implications  of the  bills  introduced  during the  Twenty-Third                                                               
Legislature, House Bill 470 and  House Bill 321; and a comparison                                                               
of  the  aforementioned  bills   with  the  original  income  tax                                                               
legislation.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
8:38:53 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WEYRAUCH asked  if the Department of  Revenue would explain                                                               
the aforementioned legislation.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
8:38:57 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MICHAEL WILLIAMS,  Auditor, Department of Revenue,  turned to the                                                               
comparison   chart  entitled,   "Projected  Income   Tax  Revenue                                                               
Comparison of 3 Proposals" which  details revenue generated under                                                               
the prior  income tax law,  House Bill  470, and House  Bill 321.                                                               
Due to  the ramp-up provisions in  House Bill 470 and  House Bill                                                               
321, for  comparison purposes  it was  necessary to  estimate the                                                               
value  based on  the total  annual revenue  beyond a  third year.                                                               
According to  the chart, if prior  law were still in  place there                                                               
would be over $758 million in personal income taxes.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. WILLIAMS,  in response to  Chair Weyhrauch, replied  that the                                                               
acronym "AGI"  stands for  "adjusted gross  income."   He relayed                                                               
that the chart shows the  total aggregate revenue from each gross                                                               
income class  which categorizes the  incomes between  the lowest,                                                               
those incomes  less than $20,000,  and the highest,  incomes over                                                               
$200,000.  The  aggregate revenue from each  percentile of income                                                               
mirrors the information received  by the Internal Revenue Service                                                               
(IRS), which  is helpful for  comparison purposes, he noted.   He                                                               
reiterated that if  the prior income tax law were  still in place                                                               
it would generate $758 million.   He added that if House Bill 470                                                               
had been  adopted it  would have generated  $107 million,  and if                                                               
House  Bill 321  had been  adopted it  would have  generated $300                                                               
million.    The House  Bill  470  property tax  credit  provision                                                               
complicates  an  accurate  projection   for  the  various  income                                                               
percentiles, he related.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH  asked if the figures  on the right of  the chart                                                               
were gross revenue and do not account for the state's overhead.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  WILLIAMS answered  that was  correct.   He relayed  that the                                                               
chart  aggregates  beyond the  forth  year  of enactment  because                                                               
House  Bill 470  has a  ramp-up provision  which effects  revenue                                                               
potential.  For  instance, the first year  expected revenue would                                                               
be $19 million, and the second year would be $55 million.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
8:43:48 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON  asked what the implications  of House Bill                                                               
321 would be without the $20,000 cap.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  WILLIAMS replied  that the  chart projections  don't include                                                               
that cap  because of data limitations.   However, due to  the tax                                                               
liability  cap of  $20,000 for  a single  person and  $30,000 for                                                               
married filing  jointly, there will  be revenue  loss; presumably                                                               
for incomes  over $1  million because  the maximum  tax liability                                                               
will only be $30,000 to the state.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WILSON  related  that  the cap  was  a  committee                                                               
substitute  (CS) proposed  after people  offered testimony.   She                                                               
asked what the case would be without the added CS provisions.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. WILLIAMS reiterated that the  $300 million projection doesn't                                                               
take into account the cap.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
8:45:29 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  WILLIAMS   turned  to   the  chart   entitled,  "Comparative                                                               
Analysis",  which   analyzes  "what   if  scenarios"   about  the                                                               
aforementioned income taxes.  The  first column provides examples                                                               
of  different tax  scenarios [i.e.  income,  home owner,  marital                                                               
status, ect.],  which assess the  income tax schemes  between the                                                               
federal tax liability and the  effective rate of their Alaska tax                                                               
divided.   He noted that  the "what  if scenarios" shows  how the                                                               
bills could impact any family's  deductions, credits, and various                                                               
rates set.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
8:47:27 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WEYRAUCH  asked if House  Bill 321  proposed a link  to the                                                               
constitutional budget reserve (CBR).                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR.  WILLIAMS replied  that his  copy of  House Bill  321 doesn't                                                               
include any link to the CBR.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ROKEBERG  commented   that  Chair  Weyhrauch  was                                                               
referring to  a "trigger mechanism,"  but he cannot recall  if it                                                               
was amended in the aforementioned bill.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
8:48:17 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. WILLIAMS,  in response to Representative  Seaton, related his                                                               
belief that dual  income families with a mortgage  of $150,000 or                                                               
$225,000 don't pay  income tax under House Bill 470.   House Bill                                                               
470 has a  property tax credit provision, which  assumes that the                                                               
individuals living  in a city or  a borough have a  property tax;                                                               
therefore, they  have already paid  sufficient property  tax such                                                               
that it would "wipe out" any Alaska income tax liability.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
8:49:12 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WILSON asked  what  percentage  of Alaskans  fall                                                               
into the aforementioned income percentiles.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. WILLIAMS relayed  that is difficult to answer.   According to                                                               
the U.S.  Census Bureau, home  ownership in Alaska is  roughly 67                                                               
percent.   However,  there is  no correlation  regarding how  the                                                               
data is  distributed on the income  scale, he added.   In further                                                               
response  to   Representative  Wilson,  Mr.  Williams   said  the                                                               
property tax credit  provision is very substantial  in House Bill                                                               
470.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
8:50:07 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ROKEBERG relayed  that  he is  interested in  the                                                               
"particulars"  of  the  aforementioned legislation  but  not  the                                                               
background.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH  replied that the  legislation will  be analyzed,                                                               
but  first  the  committee  needs   a  general  overview  on  the                                                               
implications.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
8:50:28 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  asked if the aforementioned  exemptions in                                                               
House Bill 470 were anomalies.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG answered  the exemptions aren't anomalies                                                               
and that is why the committee needs to discuss each bill.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
8:50:46 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. WILLIAMS,  in response  to Representative  Samuels, explained                                                               
that  those  individuals  who can  itemize  deductions  on  their                                                               
federal income tax returns can include  the state income tax as a                                                               
deduction.    Although  there  is  no  capability  to  accurately                                                               
reflect the  aforementioned offset  provisions, it wouldn't  be a                                                               
significant impact of revenue under the proposed legislation.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
8:51:53 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS asked  how much a dual  income family with                                                               
$150,000 mortgage would pay out-of-pocket.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. WILLIAMS  relayed the aforementioned example  under the prior                                                               
Alaska law  would generate an  income tax  of $2,269 and  if they                                                               
were able  to itemize  deductions 15 percent  would save  $340 on                                                               
their federal taxes.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ROKEBERG  pointed  out  that  the  aforementioned                                                               
doesn't take into account the  alternative minimum tax (AMT).  He                                                               
remarked that  in 2004 there will  be a sales tax  offset for the                                                               
first  time  in  Alaska  in  decades, and  one  of  the  previous                                                               
concerns regarding  the sales tax is  it did not have  the offset                                                               
whereas the  income tax  did; it is  yet to be  seen how  the new                                                               
provision under federal law allows for a sales tax offset.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
8:53:57 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. WILLIAMS  highlighted that the  "self tax deduction"  is only                                                               
allowed  for  residents living  in  cities  within boroughs  that                                                               
impose  a  local sales  tax.    For  instance, the  residents  of                                                               
Anchorage  or  Fairbanks  do not  benefit  from  that  provision,                                                               
unless they  have receipts detailing  sales taxes  paid elsewhere                                                               
in Alaska.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. DICKINSON  added that if the  state were to pass  a statewide                                                               
tax, under federal law it would  go under the "normal table."  He                                                               
related his belief that Representative  Rokeberg was pointing out                                                               
that  a  state's choice  between  income  and sales  tax  doesn't                                                               
equalize  in   terms  of  its   relationship  with   the  federal                                                               
deductibility.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
8:54:57 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. DICKINSON,  in response to Representative  Samuels, specified                                                               
that as a  general rule any self-employed  or pass-through entity                                                               
would  be  included  in  the  $758  million  projection  for  the                                                               
previous income tax  law.  In further  response to Representative                                                               
Samuels,  Mr. Dickinson  added  that  although limited  liability                                                               
companies (LLCs)  in its current  structure were not  widely used                                                               
vehicles in  1977, LLCs  would be  just taxed  once at  the owner                                                               
level.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
8:56:13 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG  asked if the committee  will discuss the                                                               
impact of taxation for the  adjusted gross sales via Alaska gross                                                               
products.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DICKINSON  replied that  the  department  will address  that                                                               
after the comparison of the three income tax bills.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
8:56:52 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DICKINSON,  in response  to  Chair  Weyhrauch, replied  that                                                               
there was  no presentation prepared that  compared the background                                                               
of  the   three  income  taxes   other  than  from   the  revenue                                                               
perspective.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
8:58:22 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
BRETT FRIED, Economist  IV, Department of Revenue,  turned to the                                                               
pie chart entitled,  "General Fund Revenue by  Tax Type Including                                                               
Oil  and Gas",  which  shows that  FY 04  general  fund (GF)  tax                                                               
revenue totaled $1.2  billion of which 82 percent is  oil and gas                                                               
and the  remaining 18 percent  is non  oil and gas  totaling $240                                                               
million.   He turned to  the second  pie chart entitled,  "GF Tax                                                               
Revenue Excluding Oil  and Gas" which excludes the  82 percent of                                                               
oil  and gas  and details  the  non oil  and gas  revenues of  18                                                               
percent.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
9:00:05 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. FRIED,  in response  to Representative  Seaton, said  the pie                                                               
chart entitled, "Alaska Gross State  Product" doesn't include oil                                                               
and gas,  which he plans to  explain later.  Mr.  Fried continued                                                               
with detailing the  non oil and gas revenues,  which includes the                                                               
following tax types:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     Tax Types:           Amount:         Percentage of                                                                         
                                          GF:                                                                                 
     insurance            $49             20 percent                                                                          
     premium              million                                                                                               
     fisheries            *               19 percent                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     motor fuel           $41             17 percent                                                                          
                          million                                                                                               
     corporation          $40             17 percent                                                                          
     general              million                                                                                               
     alcohol              $33             14 percent                                                                          
                          million                                                                                               
     tobacco              $16             7 percent                                                                           
                          million                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
                                        [ * amount unstated]                                                                    
9:01:26 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG  pointed out that  the pie chart  shows 1                                                               
percent for mining, and asked  if the mining portion includes the                                                               
real and personal property taxes paid to organized boroughs.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  FRIED replied  that the  chart only  includes the  GF taxes;                                                               
therefore,  it excludes  the local  sales taxes,  property taxes,                                                               
and restricted  revenues.  In further  response to Representative                                                               
Rokeberg, Mr.  Fried related that fish  tax is GF revenue  as are                                                               
the aforementioned share  tax revenues.  In  contrast, the school                                                               
fund is a dedicated fund that excludes any local sales tax.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
9:02:39 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ROKEBERG  opined  that  the Red  Dog  mine's  tax                                                               
contribution  to the  Northwest  Arctic Borough  cannot be  truly                                                               
represented by 1  percent.  He recalled that  the legislature has                                                               
made policy  calls for investment credits  for mining incentives.                                                               
He  said he  is  interesting  to see  the  gross government  take                                                               
versus the state GF take.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WEYRAUCH commented that the fish  tax doesn't go to the GF,                                                               
but instead it's re-appropriated to specific purposes.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
9:03:32 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ROKEBERG related  that he  is interested  "to see                                                               
who was  paying what  freight."   He added that  the oil  and gas                                                               
component on the  real property tax for the  North Slope Borough,                                                               
Fairbanks, and  Valdez are significant,  "so it should  be apples                                                               
and   oranges  anyway."     In   response  to   Chair  Weyhrauch,                                                               
Representative Rokeberg clarified it's  "apples and oranges" when                                                               
comparing the  sources of  funds with the  tax burdens  placed on                                                               
the different industries.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:04:11 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON remarked  that the  fish tax  includes the                                                               
raw  fish   taxes  collected,  which   is  shared  back   to  the                                                               
communities where the revenue was  generated, but it excludes the                                                               
severance taxes charged  by boroughs like Kodiak which  has a 7.5                                                               
percent severance  tax on all  fish products landed.   Therefore,                                                               
the total burden for each industry would be helpful to see.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DICKINSON  related  that  [the  division]  would  take  that                                                               
assignment,  although  those diagrams  will  be  open to  varying                                                               
interpretations.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. FRIED added  that "other revenue sources"  such as licensing,                                                               
permits,  fines, forfeitures,  and charges  for services  are not                                                               
included because they are difficult to break down.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH  asked if  there was a  ballpark estimate  on the                                                               
other revenue sources.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. FRIED replied not at this time.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DICKINSON added  that the  taxes in  the GF  amount to  $300                                                               
million, and  reiterated that other  categories are  more complex                                                               
to define.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  FRIED  reiterated  that  the   other  categories  deal  with                                                               
restricted revenues like  the Alaska Department of  Fish and Game                                                               
permits,  which  total $20  million,  or  the tobacco  settlement                                                               
revenue.  To help highlight his  point he turned to the pie chart                                                               
entitled,  "Alaska  Gross  State Product,"  detailing  the  gross                                                               
economic measure of output in the economy.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
9:07:56 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON recalled that  fisheries wanted to be taxed                                                               
in order  to fund the cuts  to the Alaska Department  of Fish and                                                               
Game.  She then turned to  the aforementioned chart and asked for                                                               
an  explanation  on  the   yellow  portion  entitled,  "Insurance                                                               
Premium."                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.  FRIED  related  that  the   yellow  portion  represents  the                                                               
insurance premium  tax that  insurance companies  pay in  lieu of                                                               
corporate income taxes or other state taxes.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  WEYHRAUCH,  for  clarification   purposes,  asked  if  the                                                               
insurance tax  is based on  the premiums paid by  individuals and                                                               
entities.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. FRIED replied yes.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
9:09:55 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   GRUENBERG   relayed   that  the   committee   is                                                               
interested  in the  various sources  of  revenue, including  sub-                                                               
categories that detail all the  fines, royalties, exemptions, and                                                               
credits.    He  said  that   he  is  specifically  interested  in                                                               
university  tax credits  on a  yearly basis,  and how  those vary                                                               
over time versus the maturity of other developing credits.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DICKINSON related  that  the Department  of  Revenue does  a                                                               
credits and operations report required  by statute which sets out                                                               
all  credits taken.    The  Revenue Sources  Book  lists all  the                                                               
governmental  fund  revenues,  such  as  taxes  and  charges  for                                                               
services, which accounts for $4  billion.  He reiterated that how                                                               
the  line  is drawn  regarding  what  to  account for  makes  the                                                               
exercise "more or less useful and more or less difficult."                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   GRUENBERG   reiterated    that   gathering   the                                                               
aforementioned information would be helpful for the committee.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:13:27 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH said that he  would note the committee's requests                                                               
for information.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ROKEBERG  offered that  it  might  be helpful  if                                                               
Representative Gruenberg put his request in writing.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  clarified  that   he  made  a  general                                                               
request to have  all the information put into a  form for all the                                                               
committee members, [specifically for] university tax credits.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG  noted that the requested  information is                                                               
already  in the  Revenue  Source  Book.   He  noted  that the  20                                                               
percent insurance premium  tax generates $49 million,  which is a                                                               
larger portion than the general  corporate taxes.  Representative                                                               
Rokeberg  asked if  the $9-12  million in  mutual fund  type fees                                                               
from the  Division of Banking  and Securities was still  a source                                                               
of income.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. FRIED  replied that the aforementioned  revenue is aggregated                                                               
with  "supported  services" under  charges  for  services in  the                                                               
sources book.   In further  response to  Representative Rokeberg,                                                               
Mr. Fried  said the aforementioned  is not included in  the chart                                                               
because it's a charge for services and not tax revenue.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
9:16:14 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON  related that  he  is  concerned that  the                                                               
insurance premium tax  accounts for a large portion  of the [GF].                                                               
He asked if a comparison on  the insurance premium tax versus the                                                               
corporation general tax was available.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DICKINSON  replied  that  most  states  have  gone  to  this                                                               
methodology  because the  nature of  insurance company  income is                                                               
hard to  track.   In further  response to  Representative Seaton,                                                               
Mr. Dickinson  reiterated that the  insurance premium tax  was in                                                               
lieu of a corporate tax.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
9:18:13 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG asked  if  some states  are looking  at                                                               
other ways  to tax "banks  and financial institutions"  through a                                                               
general corporate tax.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DICKINSON related  his  belief that  some  states deal  with                                                               
financial  institutions in  different measures  than the  typical                                                               
gross income;  however, he related  the need to do  more research                                                               
before commenting on specifics.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  said he was very  interested in knowing                                                               
more about that.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. DICKINSON related that he has taken note of the assignment.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  asked  if  other  state's  industries,                                                               
because of  sophisticated technology,  are getting away  from the                                                               
general  corporate  tax and  are  examining  alternative ways  of                                                               
taxing specific industries that may be more realistic.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. DICKINSON offered  that he would rather  not speculate before                                                               
obtaining  more information,  however,  he noted  that in  Alaska                                                               
telephone  and electric  cooperatives  are  exempted from  income                                                               
taxes  and pay  a  fee calculated  on its  economic  output.   He                                                               
highlighted  that  the  pie chart  entitled,  "General  Fund  Tax                                                               
Revenue  Excluding  Oil  and  Gas"   details  an  electrical  and                                                               
telephone cooperative portion of 2  percent.  In further response                                                               
to Representative  Gruenberg, Mr.  Dickinson reiterated  that the                                                               
department would try to obtain more information.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
9:21:07 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON clarified "that  answer was good enough for                                                               
me."                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
9:21:26 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS  surmised that  if an entity  like WalMart                                                               
lost money nationally, it wouldn't  pay tax in Alaska despite the                                                               
success of the store.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. DICKINSON said  correct because WalMart's income  is based on                                                               
its national [revenue accrual].                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  WILLIAMS  cautioned  about   using  such  analogies  because                                                               
separate  accounting  issues are  open  to  manipulation, as  are                                                               
other methods of accounting.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
9:22:19 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH asked whether the  issue of the mining tax burden                                                               
has been fully addressed.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:22:46 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   ROKEBERG  said   the   [legislature]  needs   to                                                               
understand shared  revenue tax  policies, and  the impact  of the                                                               
government's take.  He remarked  that the [legislature] should be                                                               
sensitive  to  changing  tax policies  including  encroaching  on                                                               
sales tax  areas, which  in turn  impacts the  government because                                                               
it's partly dependant upon these industries.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DICKINSON noted  that the  next step  in the  aforementioned                                                               
analysis would  be to account  for the services  the [industries]                                                               
receive  from  the  government and  how  to  differentiate  those                                                               
services by  industries, which  "isn't necessarily  a transparent                                                               
set of numbers to calculate."                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
9:23:36 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS  asked, for  clarification purposes,  if S                                                               
corps, private practices, or LLCs pay no taxes at all.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. DICKINSON related that when an  LLC files a federal return it                                                               
has the option of creating a  "pass through," which pays no taxes                                                               
in certain cases,  and the owners receive their due  share of the                                                               
income to  pay taxes  when appropriate.   In further  response to                                                               
Representative  Samuels,  Mr.  Dickinson   said  that  under  the                                                               
current law S Corporations are  taxed the same as C Corporations.                                                               
If [House Bill  321 and House Bill 470] had  been implemented, it                                                               
would generate $30 million.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
9:25:13 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. DICKINSON,  in response to Representative  Gruenberg, replied                                                               
that S  corporations taxes pass  through to  the owners.   In the                                                               
state  of Alaska  those  owners  pay federal  tax  but no  income                                                               
taxes, however,  in other states  owners are subject to  both the                                                               
federal and income taxes.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG asked  if the  $30 million  was "really                                                               
lost to the state."                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DICKINSON  reiterated that  the  calculations  are based  on                                                               
taxing at the entity level; not  taxing both the pass through and                                                               
personal  income  tax  because  that would  combine  the  federal                                                               
income tax and state income tax.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
9:26:45 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  FRIED returned  to  the pie  chart  entitled, "Alaska  Gross                                                               
State Product" and said the data  was from the Bureau of Economic                                                               
Analysis,    which   uses    the   North    American   industrial                                                               
classification  system  methodology  for government  entities  to                                                               
classify  industries,  earnings  for employment,  and  the  gross                                                               
state  product.   The mining  portion  is "broken  out" into  the                                                               
following  components:  oil and  gas  extraction  is 16  percent,                                                               
support  activities  and  mining  excluding  oil  and  gas  is  2                                                               
percent.    The  aforementioned  body  classifies  the  following                                                               
industries  accordingly:   the  oil  and  gas   extraction  under                                                               
"Mining"   is   also   categorized  under   "Manufacturing"   and                                                               
"Transportation"; fish is  under "Agriculture, forestry, fishing,                                                               
and  hunting"  and only  includes  fish  harvesting; and  seafood                                                               
processing  would be  under "Manufacturing",  of which  1 percent                                                               
would be the  seafood processing.  He concluded  that the tourism                                                               
industry  is especially  hard to  break  out because  of all  the                                                               
different aspects tourism encompasses.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
9:29:44 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. FRIED, in  response to Representative Rokeberg,  said that in                                                               
2002,  according to  the U.S.  Department  of Commerce,  Alaska's                                                               
gross state product was $29.7 billion.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
9:30:08 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ROKEBERG said  "It's kind  of interesting  to see                                                               
the  mining versus  the seafood  and fishing  component ...  It's                                                               
kind  of  shocking  in  a  way.   Is  this  because  of  offshore                                                               
processing ...  or added value isn't working here, or what?"                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
9:30:35 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON  replied  that  the  mining,  21  percent,                                                               
included oil.   He asked  if 2  percent of that  portion includes                                                               
minerals.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.  FRIED clarified  that 2  percent was  mining except  oil and                                                               
gas;  the  oil  and  gas  part only  includes  the  oil  and  gas                                                               
extraction  component  which is  16  percent.   The  remaining  3                                                               
percent is from  the support activities, which  also includes oil                                                               
and gas support activities, he added.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
9:31:33 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DICKINSON  relayed  that  the   lines  used  to  define  the                                                               
industries may not  be exactly what the committee  asked for, but                                                               
the graphs  show the  data with which  the Department  of Revenue                                                               
was  allowed to  work.   The  next step  would be  to define  the                                                               
project and areas  more precisely.  He added  that the department                                                               
[doesn't have] the  ability or resources to  allow this research,                                                               
or  the  statutory  authority to  conduct  this  conservatism  or                                                               
sensitive  information.   Therefore, it  uses the  data available                                                               
and it may  not line up with the categories  the committees think                                                               
of as being the primary ones that should be compared.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
9:32:46 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ROKEBERG asked  if the  aforementioned pie  chart                                                               
included "medical provider" under "Services 20%".                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. FRIED replied that is correct.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
9:33:01 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG  pointed to  the chart  entitled, "Alaska                                                               
Gross State  Product", which details  real estate accounts  for 9                                                               
percent  of  the  gross  product;  he  opined  that  real  estate                                                               
accounts for at least half of the gross product of oil and gas.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
9:33:19 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  WEYHRAUCH said  the committee  should briefly  discuss the                                                               
income tax legislation.  He  related his understanding that House                                                               
Bill 470  was concerned with  people coming into the  state, such                                                               
as those working  in fisheries and oil and  gas, and contributing                                                               
to local government.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
9:34:15 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MOSES said:                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     That's correct,  the chances of  a non  resident worker                                                                    
     having property  tax credit would  be quite  remote and                                                                    
     if  [they] did  invest  in the  state  [they] would  be                                                                    
     entitled  to that  credit.   There's  another catch  to                                                                    
     that,  areas of  the state  that do  not have  property                                                                    
     taxes  would  not  get  any   credits  either.    [The]                                                                    
     original intent was  to get something on  the table and                                                                    
     the percentage  of tax could  be adjusted  according to                                                                    
     whatever  [the legislature]  wanted  to  raise.   [Are]                                                                    
     fishermen  are  considered independent  businessmen  or                                                                    
     labor?  In the settlements  they get a 1099 and there's                                                                    
     no  taxes  withheld.   I  would  expect they  would  be                                                                    
     classified as independent businessmen.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
9:35:34 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON  relayed  that  under  the  previous  tax,                                                               
fisherman who  received a  1099 filed as  a business  under state                                                               
law and  wrote a 14  percent check for  their federal taxes.   He                                                               
remarked that  the state  shouldn't set  up a  tax for  "just the                                                               
employed" and  fishermen should pay  the same taxes as  any other                                                               
businessmen.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
9:36:28 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said:                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     I  have never  been a  great fan  of writing  checks to                                                                    
     government's  taxes, like  most  of [the]  constituents                                                                    
     and the  citizens of state,  so I preface the  remark I                                                                    
     am   about  to   make   ....  I   want  to   compliment                                                                    
     Representative  Moses,  I  have always  been  intrigued                                                                    
     with this concept  that he brought forward  a number of                                                                    
     years ago.   It has the beauty of being  more of like a                                                                    
     rifle approach to those elements  of the working public                                                                    
     in our state that [don't]  make a contribution, that is                                                                    
     more  specifically  the  out-of-state workers  and  the                                                                    
     unorganized  borough.    Because  by  allowing  a  real                                                                    
     property  tax  credit   against  your  liability  those                                                                    
     people who own  property - and a matter of  fact, ... I                                                                    
     have  a legal  opinion that  says not  just residential                                                                    
     property, but  it would be  any owner of  property that                                                                    
     paid property taxes  in the state of  Alaska would have                                                                    
     to be allowed  to have the credit  for equal protection                                                                    
     in the  constitution provisions -  but ... it  has that                                                                    
     element that has been one  of the leading arguments for                                                                    
     some type of  a broad-based type tax  because there was                                                                    
     people in our  labor force coming to the  state and not                                                                    
     making a  contribution; and this  would also  lower the                                                                    
     burden  on  everybody  ...  this   is  drafted  on  the                                                                    
     original draft; there  has never been a lot  of work on                                                                    
     the bill, that shows those  holes in middle income ....                                                                    
     The principle  of the exemption  ... is  something that                                                                    
     should  be  considered  in any  future  tax  scheme  in                                                                    
     Alaska  and it  could be  applied to  any of  the other                                                                    
     bills ....                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
9:39:18 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON said that many people who don't own                                                                       
property still pay [property tax] indirectly because landlords                                                                  
pass their expenses on to renters.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS added that if you don't have a [property                                                                 
tax] exemption, the cost for rent will increase because costs                                                                   
always pass through to renters.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
9:40:53 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WEYRAUCH asked if House Bill 321 tied into the value of                                                                   
the constitutional budget reserve (CBR) regarding when that                                                                     
proposed income tax would "kick in."                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
9:41:18 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON  said she  couldn't recall  if the  CBR was                                                               
incorporated into House Bill 321.   However, she highlighted that                                                               
the proposed  tax included requirments  by which a  warning about                                                               
taxation was printed on  commercial fishing license applications.                                                               
The aforementioned  requirement is  found in  Section 1  of House                                                               
Bill  321,  which  specifies  that   notice  be  printed  on  the                                                               
commercial  fishing   license  warning   that  the   licensee  is                                                               
obligated to pay Alaska state  income tax and federal income tax.                                                               
Section  2, imposes  an income  tax of  3 percent  of a  person's                                                               
federal  taxable income  or $100,  which  ever is  greater.   She                                                               
added  that provision  is incorporated  to  ensure everyone  paid                                                               
something and  the low income  base is covered.   Section 3  is a                                                               
conforming  amendment  to a  corporate  income  tax.   Section  4                                                               
required  taxpayers to  file returns  and remit  their taxes  the                                                               
same day  the federal return was  due and those that  owed a $100                                                               
could have the  tax deducted from the permanent fund,  if they so                                                               
wished.  She added that non  residents whose only income from the                                                               
state is  from a trust or  corporation could opt to  withhold the                                                               
taxes and  file their returns.   The  tax liability is  capped at                                                               
$20,000  for single  individuals and  $30,000 for  married filing                                                               
jointly.   She  reiterated  that the  legislation  was trying  to                                                               
appease  everyone and  it  resulted  in a  floor  of  $100 and  a                                                               
ceiling not  to exceed  $30,000.  The  legislation also  tried to                                                               
incorporate the  education tax and  it set an employee  age limit                                                               
of  19.    Furthermore,  there   was  a  provision  that  allowed                                                               
employers to withhold some of that tax.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
9:45:02 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DICKINSON related  that last  session Representative  Wilson                                                               
introduced another tax bill that included the CBR.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
9:45:32 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. WILLIAMS,  in response to  Chair Weyhrauch, relayed  that the                                                               
graph  entitled, "Projected  Income  Tax  Revenue" has  asterisks                                                               
across the House Bill 470  row, because it's difficult to produce                                                               
a  distributional analysis  of the  revenue  generated from  each                                                               
class  of income.   He  explained  that the  methodology used  an                                                               
aggregate  approach  for the  total  revenue  because it  had  to                                                               
assume the rate  of home ownership and who would  be eligible for                                                               
those  credits.   In  further response  to  Chair Weyhrauch,  Mr.                                                               
Williams said $107  million was the estimated  total gross income                                                               
from the taxes implemented under House Bill 470.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
9:47:13 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. DICKINSON  recalled that Representative  Wilson's legislation                                                               
for the billion-dollar  CBR floor and suspension of  the tax when                                                               
it was greater than $2.5 billion was House Bill 236.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  WEYHRAUCH noted  that the  questions  regarding the  legal                                                               
technicalities of using  the CBR and the  permanent fund earnings                                                               
to fill the fiscal gap have yet to be been received.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
9:48:16 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG turned to  the "2002 Revenue Source Book"                                                               
analysis on  income tax, detailing  the revenue of  the [original                                                               
income tax].   He asked if the reason the  spreadsheet shows $750                                                               
million adjusting  for inflation  to $660  million is  because of                                                               
nominal versus inflated dollars.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. WILLIAMS  said that is  correct, the old law  unchanged would                                                               
be  [$750 million]  but if  the  brackets had  been adjusted  for                                                               
inflation then it  would be $660 million.  He  related his belief                                                               
that the old  law wouldn't survive intact to  the present because                                                               
there would have  been a tax revolt such that  the brackets would                                                               
have been  simplified and  the personal  income more  than likely                                                               
would  have  regressed  to  a more  national  average,  which  is                                                               
roughly 6  or 7 percent  of federal taxable income  generating an                                                               
estimated   $300-$350   million.     In   further   response   to                                                               
Representative Rokeberg,  Mr. Williams  reiterated that  the $750                                                               
million is  a true representation  if the  old law were  in place                                                               
and remained unchanged.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
9:50:52 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  WILLIAMS, in  response to  Representative Rokeberg,  replied                                                               
that  the "Tax  Division  Annual Report"  Appendix  B includes  a                                                               
chart showing the personal income  tax rate of the various states                                                               
in the nation, which range from  5-6 percent based on the federal                                                               
taxable income.   He  added that  the effective  rate of  the old                                                               
income tax,  if it  had remained intact,  would have  made Alaska                                                               
the highest taxing state in the nation.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
9:52:44 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  WILLIAMS,  in response  to  Chair  Weyhrauch, said  the  old                                                               
income tax would generate $660 million  and oil and gas taxes are                                                               
about $2  billion.   In further response  to Chair  Weyhrauch, he                                                               
said in comparison  the old law would  generate approximately one                                                               
quarter of what oil and gas generates.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
9:53:23 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG  commented that it's important  to pursue                                                               
the last line  of questioning because it's  important to consider                                                               
[income taxes]  in a  national context  and address  "whether the                                                               
state can  afford itself."   The committee  needs to look  at the                                                               
potential  anticipated revenue  streams  and assess  what can  be                                                               
relied  on  for  the  future,  he  opined.    For  instance,  the                                                               
aforementioned $750 million would not  be a potential tax revenue                                                               
stream because it would cause a "mutiny."                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH added it would cause an outflow of industry.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ROKEBERG added  that the  impacts on  the economy                                                               
would be devastating.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
9:54:28 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
There being no  further business before the  committee, the House                                                               
Special  Committee on  Ways and  Means meeting  was adjourned  at                                                               
9:54 a.m.                                                                                                                       

Document Name Date/Time Subjects